Wagons, SUVs, and families: The Jalopnik Identity Crisis

"William Byrd" (thedriver)
09/03/2013 at 13:09 • Filed to: JALOP CRISIS, WAGONS, SUVS

This is Jalopnik's identity crisis. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Yes, but !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . I actually agree with Travis' article AND the Jalop creedo that wagons are awesome. How is that you ask? Because families. So let's delve into why you actually need a vehicle larger than a Miata in the first place. Offspring (children, not the band).

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I'm sure many of you will swear that any family of 5 or more can live with a wagon as their largest vehicle. I'm not sure I see it though, which is why I think that 5 is the magic number of household members to help determine the outcome of this crisis.

Four or below? - Wagon!
Five or above? - SUV!

Why is that you ask? Because 3rd row. If wagons could safely pull off the rear facing 3rd row, this would be less complicated. Currently I have two kids and a wife, and I am fairly certain that I could make a wagon work. Plenty of room for everyone and a large cargo area in the back for weekend bags or autocross tires (because why wagon if you don't wagon fast).

However once you add the +1, especially in a rear facing baby seat, you are more than cramped. Depending on the wagon, the first two born will quickly start to dislike their new sibling as their faces are crammed against the rear door. Can it work, sure! But anyone who has owned a 3-row SUV (or *gasp* a minvan) knows it can work better. The new baby brings with it lots of stuff. Stuff that will quickly fill the rear cargo area of your wagon. So that brings us to this beauty:

Now I'm sure lots of people will come out of the woodwork and say they made due with their wife and three kids in a Miata, ok maybe a diesel Volvo wagon. But in an era with so many options, why cram yourself into a smaller car? Economy is one point, and it's fairly valid. Until you start talking about the wagons we tend to enjoy, those with big V8 engines.

So economy isn't exactly a plus in this sense. And the larger wagons are generally expensive. Along with our, V, AMG and RS poster children, the more pedestrian versions of these cars aren't that cheap. In that sense, let's compare German apples to German apples (sort of).

2013 Mercedes-Benz E-Class

E63 AMG 4dr Wagon (5.5L 8cyl Turbo 7A)

vs.

2014 Mercedes-Benz GL-Class

GL63 AMG 4dr SUV AWD (5.5L 8cyl Turbo 7A)

MSRP

Both are easily 6-figure cars, the wagon coming in quite a bit less in MSRP.

Powerrrrr
Both have 5.5L V8s producing over 500hp. and 500 ft. lbs

Tranny
Both have 7spd automanuals

Seating
Both seat 7. Wait, what? The E-class has the folding jump seats, so apparently you can seat more than 5 in a wagon? Case closed! Well, actually no, you won't have room for your stuff since these "seats" cover the rear cargo compartment.

Features
They are both AMG Merc's, they're loaded. It's a wash.

Maximum cargo capacity
Wagon - 57.4 cu.ft.
SUV - 93.8 cu.ft.
Oof, that's a tough blow to the wagon crew. And this stat is probably not with the rear seats in place in the wagon.

Maximum towing capacity
Wagon - N/A
SUV - 7500 lbs.
I'm sure the wagon can tow something, maybe Edmunds didn't know, or figured no one would. But if you want to haul even more, toss a trailer on there. Because racecar.

Conclusion

So what does this all mean? If you are part of the wagon crew, nothing. You still believe that a 1996 Volvo 850 T5-R (EDIT: or Roadmaster Estate) would do what you need it to do and is the answer to this question. But most families don't want a car that, if it were one of their children, would be old enough to drive. Or they don't hate SUVs (or god forbid minivans) and have embraced them as the best option for their family.

But that's what makes us Jalopnik material I suppose? Is "because wagon" always the right answer even if it's not the most practical solution? Or is there a point where you have to admit you need more room? Discuss amongst yourselves.

DISCUSSION (100)

Nibbles > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:13

Need to haul 5-7 people and have some cargo room? Roadmaster Estate / Vista Cruiser and retain your Jalop card.

Z_Stig > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:14

Growing up in a family of 5, large SUVs were often the most practical option. My family loved Suburbans. Eventually my mom got a Grand Caravan, and that worked well for the same reason: it had a third row of seating.

However, I still hate high-performance SUVs. They encourage drivers to ignore the laws of physics with all the horsepower and torque, and the automakers have put enough electronic nannies, aids, and gizmo's, the driver will never understand why they don't fly off the road. This just makes drivers suck more and more.

William Byrd > Nibbles
09/03/2013 at 13:15

What if I don't want a 20 year old daily driver to haul my kids around in? Is there no Jalop answer for family hauling other than "20 year old wagon" or "new super expensive wagon"?

Victorious Secret > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:16

There is only one wagon that interests me and it can't be bought by me ever so its a moot point.

I'd take a solid sports coupe over a wagon that goes fast. If I want a large vehicle that hauls ass, don't see anything wrong with the SRT8 or SQ5.

William Byrd > Victorious Secret
09/03/2013 at 13:19

SQ5? That's a thing? I didn't even know! I do like the SRT treatment on pretty much every vehicle they've put it on (Caliber aside).

For Sweden > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:20

If you don't want a Roadmaster Estate, no matter what age it may be, you need to enter electroshock therapy because you're crazy.

William Byrd > For Sweden
09/03/2013 at 13:22

This?

Kinja'd!!!

No.

Victorious Secret > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:24

Kinja'd!!!

Nibbles > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:29

Of course general consensus may disagree, don't let my statement speak for the whole of JalOppo. The fact that the CTS wagon was such a monumental sales failure says that there is other answers; I'm just not fond of any of them really.

I also do not have children (we opted for animals instead) and, as such, have no experience from which to draw. But reasonably priced 5+ person movers just all seem quite generic; there's really no soul to the majority of them. Except maybe the CX-9, I had one as a rental once and it was a pretty nice vehicle (for being an overglorified, high-sitting wagon).

Which brings me to the thing I wonder about on a regular basis (and yes I know the answer - CAFE - but still do not understand): Why do auto makers take sedan platforms, raise them, put LT tires on them and call 'em SUVs, when they could just retain the original ride height, skip the unnecessary weight gain, and have wagons? Yeah there is also the 'Murican stigma behind the word "wagon", so they could call 'em something else. Instead of wagon we could come up with another acronym because people are enamored with the stupid things these days.

505Turbeaux > Nibbles
09/03/2013 at 13:32

Kinja'd!!!

My kiddos in the 3rd row of my RMW. Keeping it real

Kinja'd!!!

the wagon love is strong in my household

William Byrd > Nibbles
09/03/2013 at 13:33

That is probably a valid question in this case. Wagons certainly have a stigma in the US.

Although, the "raising" when engineering the SUV version tends to include the cargo compartment. It's higher and you can get more stuff into it. That's the part to me that seems useful, I've tried to cram 200lbs of stuf into a 150lb cargo container (so to speak) and that extra bit of room in the SUV is actually pretty useful.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:37

The culprit is kids' carseats. Simple as that.

My wife and I have three kids - 6, 4, and 7 months. Good luck getting a rear-facing carseat, a front-facing carseat, and a booster three across in any sedan (or wagon) shy of a Toyota Avalon.

Once the older two are out of carseats, maybe we can talk, but until then, if we're taking a trip any longer than 10 minutes, we'll have three rows of seats. My wife's CX-9 has over 120k miles on it now, and has served us well.

We'll see if I can convince her of a hot wagon (or an A7) in a few years. RS7 is a 4-seater [sad face].

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:38

Kinja'd!!!

Want.

GOAT__RODEO > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 13:42

POD > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:43

Replace children with dog, and I'm in agreement. Added bonus, I don't have to worry about the dog growing up and wanting to drive the car. Although I'm sure he would, no waiting on me to get my @$$ out of bed and drive him to the park.

warren31 > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:44

My wife and I have stopped with two kids so we can keep our fleet of 3ers and not have to get an SUV. If there was wagon with a manual and n54, I would be all over it.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 13:45

Good point. That's the only reason I traded my '09 Jetta TDI for a '12 Passat TDI; the back seat area is much bigger, so I don't have to move my seat up when the twins are riding along. Bonus: the Passat gets the same mid-40's hwy mileage that the smaller Jetta did.

duurtlang > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:45

Conclusion: the reason for an SUV is the third row of seats, it's for people with more than 2 kids. So, basically, it's a pretentious minivan. Makes sense to me.

Rhetorical question: What's the point of an SUV without a third row?

Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:46

If you've got kids, just suck it up and get the minivan. You're a jalop, so you're not one of those pansies that thinks it's somehow irresponsible to own two (or more) cars.

zacarious > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:47

But most SUVs, the Q5, X3s Ford Edges of the world only seat 5.

They are basically useless compared to a good wagon. I know. I own a Q5. Miss the old allroad so very very much.

davidj210 > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:47

Ford Flex?

blendermassacre86 > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:48

We have 5 kids, from 13 to 6 months. I have literally toiled with this. I miss my 91 Subaru Legacy Wagon to death, but I, too, am going the way of the Suburban / Yukon XL. There's no way around it. Unless...

Kinja'd!!!

ptak appreciates old racecars > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:49

As to seating, that's where the Tesla Model S comes in :D

ncasolowork2 > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:50

Wagons suck. Not because they're not functional. Not because they're not practical. They suck because they look horrible.

Carwood > Nibbles
09/03/2013 at 13:50

Almost inherited my great uncles roadmaster estate..white w/ the wood trim and the vette engine. It ended up going to cars4kids in nj/ny. Would have been the ultimate tailgate vehicle.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
09/03/2013 at 13:51

I'm 6'1" and long-legged. I'm pretty sure I'd have to drive an S-class to make a rear-facing carseat work behind my seat, and now kids need to be in rear-facing until they're two. Thankfully my wife's almost a foot shorter...

justin6477 > duurtlang
09/03/2013 at 13:52

A less crass, yet less tasteless, show of "fuck you" money?

blendermassacre86 > Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon
09/03/2013 at 13:52

There is this, too.

SirNik84 > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:56

If you want a car to haul your family, buy a car. Wagons are cars with more cargo area for more people.

If you want to tow something, or haul a heavy load, get a truck. Get a crew cab, extra cab or whatever you want to call it. They make them in all sizes of trucks these days.

I grew up in a Mercury Grand Marquis with fo-wood paneling, then my folks upgraded to the F350 crew cab. Today there are many more steps between the wagon and the full size truck. You can get a Tacoma/Colorado size truck or an F150 in a crew cab before you make it into the full size truck.

I don't see the point of an SUV. Its a compromise vehicle, It does a lot of things, but none of them well.

For Sweden > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 13:56

Kinja'd!!!

Porcodio > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 13:57

Try harder, young padawan.

Nibbles > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:58

Quite true. I'm fairly certain though, that with the right engineers, one could build a wagon that retains a car's ride height, ups the roof height (for added cargo capacity), retains a decent center of gravity and does not gain much weight. The Ford Edge weighs in at a hair under 4,300 lbs. Its sedan platform mate, the Fusion, comes in around 3,300. Taller pillars, glass and interior panels would definitely not add up to half a ton. Not to mention the lower ride height, lower center of gravity and the like would allow the new wagon variants to garner better fuel economy than the current SUV/CUVs.

In other words, remove the off-road / soft-road appearance and components (since they are rarely used in that fashion), give it a lower ride height, remove the truck tires, and call it notawagon.

MentalMechanic > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:59

I love cars and I love wagons...but as anyone with 5 people in car or wagon can atest to long trips is not desirable. Unless you are *that* family no one needs to be touching their brother/sister/aunt/uncle/dog the whole road trip, let alone breathe each others sweat hair in. Since most wagons don't get much better fuel economy and most minivans get the same as suvs why not get an suv? They can do more then just haul people, They can haul stuff like your snowmobiles, Lemons car and trailer, motorcycles, boats, camper, and come with 4x4 capability so you can drive around the wagons and minivans stuck in the snow or pull them out of a ditch and be a hero, your choice. All while having extra power to boot. And if that upsets you remember you only need one family *SUV* you can have your daily commuter/track day car be whatever you want.

We opt for *price being a consideration* Dodge Durango R/T awd SUV, and The Ford Focus SVT and have 5 seats filled. For short trips *under 2 hours* the Focus is very admirable and fits 2 car seats and a booster FIY. but for long trips or when we need to have extra room the Durango RT fits the bill perfectly. Plus it is fun to get muddy and then pass most cars with out looking like you are trying hard and the wife likes it because it sounds pretty.

Porcodio > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 13:59

The only problem is that there is not a really big wagon, except for maybe the R Class.
SUV's have much less usable space (compared to the space they occupy) .

MentalMechanic > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:00

Focus SVT FTW did it not fun but I still did it. You just have to find the right car seats .

maximillious > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:00

I think when i finally have a kid I will upgrade to something like a STI wagon. I want them to have something fun to do while they are on car rides rather than stare at a tv screen on the back of my chair. Listening to the turbo spool should fill that void nicely.

BigHarv > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:00

For some reason I have these terrible thoughts of buying a 5.0 LR4 and slapping a supercharger and intercooler on it, a la Range Rover Sport.

Kinja'd!!!

RalphieDC > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:01

I have 3 kids in booster seats, don't go off road and don't tow anything. Yet when it came time for a larger, 3rd row vehicle my wife and I spent a good deal of time looking at SUV's. Then we broke down and looked at minivans. Then we looked at SUV's again. We could only find one reason to buy the SUV over the minivan, and that reason still almost pushed it in the SUV's direction: VANITY. If you don't tow or go off road there is really no better large family vehicle than a minivan, it's easier to load the kids in and out of, has as much or (usually) more cargo room and gets as good or better gas mileage than most, if not all, 3 row SUV's. And short of a Suburban it is the only 3rd row seat that at 6'3" I could sit in for more than 10 minutes.

Stewbacca > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:02

We Americans need to get over ourselves and our "need" for giant SUVs. My family of 5 fits in a freakin' Mazdaspeed 3 hatchback, which includes one child's seat in the middle. And two large teenaged boys. With room for stuff. Granted, we aren't hittin' the road for 1,000 miles any time soon and we rarely go to the same place all at the same time, but we could if we had to. There's no need to justify a 3-row, 7 passenger land yacht for the yoga-pants wearing mom who put all her kids on the school bus before she heads to Starbucks with her 6 imaginary passengers.

Even my friends who have the logistical need (they have a 4 year old and infant twins in car seats) get by with a Honda Pilot.

My friends who have a lot of kids? Well, they drive BMWs...you know, Big Mormon Wagons (12 passenger full-sized vans).

tosk05 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:03

You still have a four year old rear facing and s/he hasn't murdered the shit out of you yet??????

chris209 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:04

Rear-facing until they're two, no. There's no way kids can still fit in a rear-facing seat when they're that size. Where do you live that there's such laws?

BMW535inFL > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:04

I have owned the following wagons - 740 Turbo, 850 GLT (POS special edition), Saab 9-5 Gary Fisher , '99 Audi A4 quattro, '03 5-speed E39 525i wagon, '06 530xiT, '10 535xiT. All great cars (when the 850 wasn't in the shop getting its door hinges welded back on). Handled better than any SUV and hauled almost as much. We didn't have dogs, but two kids, stroller, playpen, etc. Kids have moved out, each driving Mazda3 hatches but both have driven wagons as their primary car. I finally went to the dark side this year because I was having issues with the '10 535. Went to a '13 X5 sport package with 20" wheels. Why? Because diesel. Miss the wagons though.

exizeo - still loving fourza > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:04

Kinja'd!!!

Damn...so aggressive.

Also that 850R...as a 850 owner, I want that. In yellow, because my white one's too mainstream.

Stewbacca > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:04

That's understandable (a CX-9 is totally reasonable), but doesn't explain the glut of 9-passenger Chevy Suburbans (usually driven with no passengers by trophy wife who's 2 kids are off to school). And starting at $45k??? Please sell me a BMW M3 wagon for that price.

Jagvar > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:05

We have a couple of them at the office right now. Very sleeper; not much to visually differentiate them from the run-of-the-mill Q5.

BiffMagnetude > Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon
09/03/2013 at 14:05

I've got kids...I drive an A7.

The kids and their shit all fit.

I've also got a couple more cars...One's a truck collecting dust and the other is my wife's SUV that mostly gets driven to and from work with nobody but her in it because...WHY WHY IS THIS HAPPENING????WHY?????

X-cchannel-M > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:05

That is not the greatest excuse, in my opinion. SUVs are tall, and that height has benefits. Much easier getting stuff (like babies) into a car you don't have to stoop down into. Secondly, that commanding driving position is pretty cool, and the upright driving position very comfortable. The taller cargo bay is more conducive for carrying stuff than a wagon's letterbox.

Yes you can buy a minivan instead, but you can also buy one mustang for the same price. I'd say a true Jalop would never really have a problem with SUVs because they know good things come in all flavors.

UncleWalty > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:05

Not saying it is right or wrong, but the Q7 4.2 FSI gets the job done for our family of four.

Kinja'd!!!

KirkyV > duurtlang
09/03/2013 at 14:06

Warning the rest of the world about just how much of an inveterate arsehole you are?

ncasolowork2 > For Sweden
09/03/2013 at 14:06

Looks like a hearse.

Jagvar > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:06

Kinja'd!!!

Um...

01NB, Enjoying F10 DeMuro Style > Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon
09/03/2013 at 14:06

this x1000.

The only thing that is slowing that argument down is the MPG, most MVs get 17 over 25 or so. The CUV class is catching up to those numbers.

I prefer a sliding door though, which would likely cause a MV to win over a CUV.

Funny sidenote: have a co-worker with a CX-7 she bought becuase they "needed the space". A few weeks ago, she asked me to help load a heavier item into the back. I could not help but laugh when I saw that the boot of that CX was a fair amount smaller than my JSW, and it has about the same backseat room. All kinds of fail happening there.

Stewbacca > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:06

Yes, because the Audi at the top of this page is so horrible looking. I mean, especially compared to a Suburban, amiright?

KMarino > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:06

Glad to see someone state the truth.

Mean-Jim-Green > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:07

Thank you for noting the caliber - the SRT treatment merely took it from tragically to hilariously bad. Have you ever met someone who drives one? I wouldn't recommend it.

ncasolowork2 > Stewbacca
09/03/2013 at 14:07

Suburban is ugly as well. The Audi looks like a hearse.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:07

Kinja'd!!!

For Sweden > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:08

Clearly you have never seen a hearse.

ncasolowork2 > For Sweden
09/03/2013 at 14:08

Looks like a sporty hearse. Zoom zoom to the cemetery.

For Sweden > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:09

I stand by my previous point.

Washabi > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:09

I was looking into picking up an SUV to replace my once daily-driven NSX, but I found the world of wagons and to be completely honest, I'm so glad that I did. It's a good mixture of practicality and fun, not to mention the fact that it comes in an AWD stickshift turbo. How do I put it? Imagine a larger, unassuming, grown up STi. :)

Kinja'd!!!

TulsaMtnBiker (OkieRising) > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:10

So Much.

Kerberos824 > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:10

I hate to say this, and I know I will be immediately chastised. But I don't have a problem with minivans. I'm 30. I don't have kids. I have a fiance. That's it. What I do have though, is a lot of friends, with many fun places to go. No matter the car, nothing holds a candle to a minivan. Buddy of mine has one, holds six people in captains chairs. Outstanding comfort. I used to have one, carried eight people in relative comfort, with room for stuff. I will happily have two cars, one for transport/utility, and one for fun. I will never, ever, have a big stupid SUV that gets 12 mpg that will never do anything that a minivan can't do. If I towed, or went off road, maybe that will be different. But I don't. SUVs should take all the ire that minivans have directed at them instead.

M_Atenza04 > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:10

A family of 5 can't fit into a wagon? Time to leave the US and see how the rest of the world does it! The answer is simple, gas is cheap in America so people buy large SUV's even though most families have more than 1 car and occasionally have to fit up to 5 people in it. In fact most of the time I see SUV's/crossovers with 1 adult and if they have passengers its not 5+. I see people with only 1-2 kids buy SUV's and often just leave it stuffed full of unnecessary items, they could have easily gotten by with a wagon or hatchback but just wanted the space. It's just the American mentality of needing more space and the lifestyle we have here. Tell someone in another first world country that you need an SUV for a family of 5 and they will laugh at you.

reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:10

We tried to stick to wagons. In 2002, our three kids were 12, 10, and 5. Our two car fleet was an '87 745 Turbo and a '94 965. That backseat was packed - the 5 y/o was still in a booster, and my 10 y/o was nearly as big as his older sister and my wife. Being a thinking Jalop, I didn't want a big, lumbering car...but I needed a bigger back seat. And I had some things that were non-negotiable. Every seat had to have a shoulder belt and a head restraint. in 2002, most truck-based American SUV's still only had a lap belt for the second row middle. I didn't want the middle seat to be configured in a way that was less than the two outboard seats - a shorter seat cushion, or sculpted ridges that favor the two window seats, and give you a thin, flat surface to sit on. I didn't want to have to put a kid in a third row seat - they would be back with luggage and stuff for family holidays and vacation trips. I needed a back cargo area that would hold the stuff a family of five would bring on a week's vacation. And I really didn't want body-on-frame construction - that meant light truck, and in America back then that still meant more lenient safety requirements. That really left us with only one option, and we've had a Honda Pilot then an Acura MDX since 2003. We'll probably cycle one more large CUV as there are still family vacations and trips to colleges, then we'll downsize. Still have the '94 965 - last year a tree fell on it (serious), other than a few decent-sized dents, it's still hanging in there - and easily the most conveniently useful car we have. Ever try putting something on the roof of an MDX?

BiffMagnetude > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:11

I'm 6'4" and my kid fit behind me backward in my A7. A6 has the same interior dimensions for less money. I am sure there are plenty of midsize cars that can do the job.

Chairman Kaga > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:11

Good Lord, this.

When I started griping about how my Fit wouldn't accommodate a modern rear-facing seat, board members from other countries piled on like I'd just declared America #1. A Fit is considered a large car in much of the world, how could it not be big enough? Oh right, I'm American.

But the fact is, ANY rear-facing child safety seat will demolish front leg room. The Fit was incapable of transporting my wife in the front passenger seat if the baby's seat was behind. No way could I drive if it was behind me. Once we went to front facing, the problem was solved.

Then we got pregnant again.

So we sold the Fit and got a CRV. The CRV has reclining AND sliding rear seats. More than enough room, right?

No.

At least my wife can sit in the front passenger seat, but she has approximately 3 inches of clearance between her knees and the dash. It's mighty uncomfortable.

Of COURSE we didn't just trade the Fit for the CRV, but now it feels like a stupid decision. It gets 2/3 the fuel economy, costs more to insure, is boring as hell, and took almost $7k out of our car savings. And it solved NOTHING. It's marginally safer, has fewer miles, can carry more stuff in the back, and has some upgraded features. So it's not a TOTAL loss.

The baby will only be rear-facing for 18 months or so, about the same time our oldest will be moving to a booster. Life should get easier then.

But here's the thing with 3rd row seats. Unless you have captains chairs or a pass-thru in the 2nd row, they're basically useless if you have car seats for the kids. You can't get to them unless rear passengers are willing to climb over the 2nd row, or you remove the car seat to let them in, then reinstall it to seat the kid. Jesus. Really?

Therefore, I conclude the best car for a family with kids is the Mazda5. A car my wife won't even consider test driving. Sigh.

Kinja'd!!!

I See Car People > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:11

I'm just here for the main photo.

CardboardCutoutAlf > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:11

For me personally, the wagon vs SUV debate is simple and clear cut:

My girlfriend and I recently sold our 940 wagon and bought a Rav 4. I wanted another wagon because, well, they kick ass. SUV's are generally no fun.

Why did we get the Rav?

1) The Rav sits higher than a wagon. We are in a band, and we both DJ with vinyl and turntables. And often bring our own PA and subs. Loading this gear into the Rav is much easier than a wagon - you don't have to bend over - it saves my back. Also the Rav can be loaded with the same gear as the 940, but I can still see out the back!

2) since the Rav sits higher, my girlfriend feels more empowered as a driver (we live in Brooklyn)

That's it. People like SUVs because they sit high, and fit a lot of stuff.

Oh and also the last music tour I did - we played 24 cities and drove almost 6,000 miles. In a Ford Explorer! I've done the same in a cargo van, and the Explorer was MUCH more comfortable in every way.

Bands like SUVs :)

responsible-alcoholic > For Sweden
09/03/2013 at 14:11

This is a much more polite response than mine was going to be. You are a better man than I.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > tosk05
09/03/2013 at 14:12

Ha! 7 months - rear-facing, 4 - front-facing, 6 - booster.

ncasolowork2 > Jagvar
09/03/2013 at 14:12

Honestly the Z4 might be the only decent looking car BMW makes. Though I did see a 650 coupe this weekend that wasn't half bad.

Chairman Kaga > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:12

Then we got pregnant again.

So we sold the Fit and got a CRV. The CRV has reclining AND sliding rear seats. More than enough room, right?

No.

At least my wife can sit in the front passenger seat, but she has approximately 3 inches of clearance between her knees and the dash. It's mighty uncomfortable.

The baby will only be rear-facing for 18 months or so, about the same time our oldest will be moving to a booster. Life should get easier then.

Therefore, I conclude the best car for a family with kids is the Mazda5. A car my wife won't even consider test driving. Sigh.

Kinja'd!!!

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Victorious Secret
09/03/2013 at 14:12

Well holy shit, didn't know they had a S trim Q5. Interesting.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > chris209
09/03/2013 at 14:14

'Murica.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/03…

My 4 1/2 year old weighs 34 lbs.

Stradale > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:14

Not to mention towing. I'm not going to back my boat into the lake with a low wagon. A performance SUV can do more than a wagon and still be a terror on the track, just look at all the cars the SUV class beats on One Lap Of America.

iexiak > duurtlang
09/03/2013 at 14:14

Because some people want more space but will not have more than 5 people in the car at any given time?

Kinja'd!!!

Also, 2 door SUV, because AMERUCA

Jayhawk Jake > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:14

What hearses are you looking at?

Nibbles > davidj210
09/03/2013 at 14:16

I like the Flex, in idea. It is not much more than a wagon, packaged slightly differently. Its fairly dismal sales figures show that the wagon hatin' public of America caught on to Ford's little charade as well.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Stewbacca
09/03/2013 at 14:16

BMW will gladly sell you a 3-series Grand Touring instead. [puke]

responsible-alcoholic > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:16

I call you out on your cargo capacity numbers. There is no way an SUV has 94 cu ft. with the seats up. The real number we want is with the seats up because that is the way we'll be driving with the familiy; I'll wager that the wagon has more space than the SUV in that case. [EDIT - i forgot 7 passenger. damn that thing is huge.]

I compared a Toureg to a Passat Wagon (a when they still made them) and hands down the Wagon was bigger, both inside and in cargo area.

And another point you don't mention is the fact that wagons have lower sill heights for easier access. My dog enjoys that now, and will when he's 10 and only has to jump up a short way!

Thunder > Z_Stig
09/03/2013 at 14:17

Too bad there is no mandatory Miata that goes along with gargantuan SUV ownership. Perhaps as a mothership/parasite fighter arrangement.

"I'm taking the kids to (school/soccer/gymnastics/dance/basket weaving). Once I've dropped them off, though, I'll deploy the Zippy Over Oppo Machine (ZOOM) and take the back way to work. After work, I'll ZOOM back to the Massive Open Monster (MOM) and go pick them all up."

Jagvar > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:18

Kinja'd!!!

Hmm. I'm guessing you're a small-car kind of guy.

redav > Nibbles
09/03/2013 at 14:18

Raising the car makes ingress/egress easier. Many people like the improved view and sitting position. These are real advantages valued by consumers, not just psychological tricks of 'it looks stronger.'

TheDanKest > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:19

wagons are awesome mines a orphan and i love it 99 Saab 9-5 wagon with stage 2 tune going stage 3 soon. anyone who hates wagons can suck it

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chairman Kaga
09/03/2013 at 14:19

My six year old gets into his booster in our split third row through the back.

BigHarv > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:20

Ford Flex Ecoboost is the best option right now, I think. Tuneable, turns a 14 sec quarter mile stock, tons of room inside, looks like a hearse. What's not to love?

Kinja'd!!!

Vin > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:20

Both high performance wagons and SUVs are ridiculous. Unless you'd want to haul your family around at high speeds (which is the most mind-numbingly stupid concept), then you'll be driving the thing no differently then the underpowered versions the overwhelming majority of the time. Besides, most of them cost so much that it makes more sense to get a normal SUV and a used sports car (like a Miata or a E36 M3) for when you want to fuck around. The only thing they're good for is surprising people at the drag strip - except wait no one's surprised anymore by superfast SUVs or wagons.

They're shit for commuting. They're shit for the track. In the case of SUVs, they're shit for off-roading. They end up the hands of stupid drivers or young adults with wealthy parents - most of whom don't have a family to haul around. They're not better for grocery-getting or hauling stuff around - because such errands are so soul-sucking that something else will crop up to make the whole experience as miserable as it's always been.

Stop buying these stupid things and pour money into proper sportscars.

davidj210 > Nibbles
09/03/2013 at 14:21

I've been in one, I have a second cousin who owns one. It's like a big boxy wagon with plenty of headroom. Or a square minivan without the sliding doors. Either way, it's got more space inside than most midsize SUVs, without the unnecessary ground clearance and faux-offroader styling. Apparently it's a hoot with the ecoboost engine.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear.
09/03/2013 at 14:22

Amazing how your thinking changes after you have kids.

When I bought my '05 Mazda 3s hatch, I thought, "Side airbags? Adds too much weight! ABS? Who needs that?!".

Z_Stig > Thunder
09/03/2013 at 14:22

That would be awesome.....Luxo-cruiser down the interstate to your favorite back road and detach the ZOOM stage for loads of fun!

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Jagvar
09/03/2013 at 14:22

My guess this is more his thing.

Kinja'd!!!

Jared > Ratchet when he's all hopped up on synthetic energon
09/03/2013 at 14:23

I bought an 07 Honda Odyssey EX-L that one of my customers traded in. Something came over me and I was overwhelmed by the practicality.

Unlike an SUV, the third row is use-able. And unlike an SUV, it has a super low floor, which is awesome. Granted, that is because it is FWD, but I'll get by with winter tires. Probably better than many SUV's on worn out all-seasons, judging by all the SUV's I see in ditches in the winter.

I can deal with not projecting an image of cool. I mean, I sort of die a little when I look at it from the outside, but one inside I'm like "whoa, it's like a giant roomy wagon!"

And it doesn't make me any less of a car enthusiast. If anything, I'm more of one because I am not a poseur driving an SUV.

tosk05 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
09/03/2013 at 14:23

Reading comprehension was never my thing.

You are spot on. Three kids each in need of their own seat mandates three rows.

ghost650 > Jagvar
09/03/2013 at 14:23

BRB gonna photoshop a Miata Wagon.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Kerberos824
09/03/2013 at 14:23

They can't be beat for practicality and usability.

I never thought it'd happen, but my wife might be coming around on the idea.

Thomasaurus > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:23

You must be one of those guys who buys the sedan version of an econobox because you thinks it makes you look more upscale.

bwwooster > BigHarv
09/03/2013 at 14:25

...and it has a refrigerator, sort of.

TurboLag23 > ncasolowork2
09/03/2013 at 14:27

If we're now stating opinions as facts, I must now opine that you are completely and indisputably incorrect.

protodad > William Byrd
09/03/2013 at 14:27

WRONG. Speaking as someone with that magic number, wagons for 4 or less (don't put three kids on the same seat, especially if carseats are invovled). 5+ is Minivan. Scared drivers and people with identity crisis' get SUV's. A minivan handles better, gets better milage, and seats more comfortably than any SUV. Unless you are towing something, skip the vehicle based on a truck chassis.